Men - Who Needs 'Em?

Well, I do.  We do.  The Church does. 

A few years ago, Deacon Tim's message would have been jeered.  Now, I'm not so sure.......times, they may be a changin'.  I don't think there will be a middle ground on this podcast: you'll either love it or hate it.  Weigh in and let us know where you stand, and please pass this one along - I believe this is a message that needs to be heard.

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If you have trouble downloading/playing from this site, go here:twoedgetalk podcast feed and go to episode 13:  Men's Spirituality.

Comments

[Janet in GA]

Very thought-provoking podcast today. Two things have crystallised for me:

(1) I left corporate life after 17 years when we did an international move for my husband's job, and ended up a stay-at-home mom for the first time. After 5 years at home with two boys (now teens), I feel more like "me" than I ever did out there in the workplace. It was a difficult adjustment, but I can't imagine it any other way. My "feminine" self had been repressed in the workplace and I'm glad to have it back. Not at all coincidentally I'm sure, I became Catholic during these five years in the US, and now I have a paradigm of femininity that makes sense to me.

(2) We are moving back to our home country this summer and are enrolling our two young men in an all-boys Catholic school. The more I read and ponder, the more I am starting to be convinced of the benefits of single-gender schooling for my sons. Your podcast underscored why this may be true.

Thanks for this great ministry.

[Kitchen Madonna]

This is a great podcast! Yes, we have pushed men away, making them feel like we don't need them anymore. I am happiest when I am a stay at home mom taking care of the home front!

[Heather in the Old Dominion]

Tim's comments are so true... I think that the way we have structured church makes it appeal to women. I have worried about the boys in our Sunday School classes in our church becoming turned off to Christianity because of the school-like classes where more subdued, feminine behavior is rewarded. Rarely are boys given leadership positions in the classes and it is rare (at least before highschool) to have a male teacher. I think it is no wonder that boys in particular become church drop-outs.

[Miz Booshay]

Wonderful podcast today Cyndi and Deacon Tim!

I can't really speak to the role of men in the church cause I'm a woman :o)
From what I have read in the Bible, God wants men to take the lead. I do believe He created men to lead.

I would like to share how my attitude helps to encourage my husband to take the lead around the home.

I can be the bossy one and am happy taking the lead. But, the more I studied the word, the more I realized my husband needed to lead and he needed to be respected.

I prayed for years that hubby would be the spiritual head of the home.

Three years ago he finally (after 24 years of marriage) chose a church he would like to attend. It was the church of his youth. The Catholic church.
This meant a big change for me and the children. But, I believe God wants me to follow...and I had been asking for a leader!
So I happily attend with my husband.

I also need him to help me set limits for our children.
Curfew. Dress. Piercings.
I'm really glad I've got him to help with some hard decisions.
'We will need to talk to you father about that.' I say.

Last week my sister wrote and asked what I thought of 'thongs' for young teen girls...
The first thing I asked her was, 'What does your husband say?'

(She spoke to her hubby and things worked out beautifully. Said hubby told young daughter, 'thongs are for your feet!'

he he he

This is the little thing you will catch me saying to the younger women I know...

'What does your husband think?'

It may be the first time they have heard such a thing.
And maybe it will help to start changing attitudes.

It worked for me.
As I was once a young woman who was questioned,
'what does your husband think of that?

It took me a long time to give up my desire to have the final word (I am stubborn and prideful) and to trust that God would work thru my husband.
And that God would bless my submission to my husband.

And He has.

[Miz Booshay]

Oh, my goodness.
I'm sorry that is so long!
I didn't realize.

[OKCyndi]

Miz Booshay,
No apology necessary - I was hanging on every word. Great advice to wives of all ages!

[Felicia Hare]

I enjoyed your podcast very much. It brings to mind a book I am reading for the second time. "How to Change Your Husband" by a Friend of Medjugorje. I have bought several and passed them out in our parish as well as a few in the community of Pryor. It truly, I believe saved my marriage. I have had to step down from "running" our household and let my husband step up. The rewards of submissiveness to my husband have healed many aspects of my marriage and family. God truly rewards a submissive wife. It is a different kind of freedom rewarded by God when we obey Him by obeying our husbands. I was loaned this book by someone in our parish family and then started ordering them from Jim at Catholic Book and Gift in Tulsa. For me personally, besides going to Cursillo, it truly changed my life!

[Bob Cleveland]

This was probably the best I've heard.

About a year ago, I stumbled across an article in the Jamaica Gleaner (newspaper) online that so struck me, I printed it and read it to my SS class. It was entitled "Why Men Don't Go To Church", and was an excerpt from a book. They have a big problem with men not going to church, and not being involved, in Jamaica, so it interested me.

The premise of the article is that men aren't much attracted by truth and beauty and all that esoteric stuff. Men want to rise to a challenge, they want to excel, they want to strive for excellence, and those things aren't concretely evident, or even smiled upon much, in the church.

Consider this: my hero in the faith is Elwyn Stafford, and ordained Baptist minister who taught Sunday School in a Presbyterian church. He's a great Bible teacher, and I have wanted to be like him. I recognized, when I read the article, that I wanted to be a great Bible teacher. In fact, I cannot justify my goal being any less than the greatest teacher ever. My students deserve nothing less than that.

Now the church will usually confuse greatness with glory. But God doesn't; He knows the difference. Goodness, I don't want any glory; that all goes to my Lord. In fact, I won't accept any sort of award or trophy or certificate for doing what God gifted me, and gave me the privilege, to do.

Think about praise choruses. "As the deer panteth for the water, so my soul longeth after thee...". Or "You are beautiful beyond description, too marvelous for words...". Guys don't talk like that! We think about challenges, conquering, triumphs, winning, being victorious. And the church doesn't throw down much of a challenge, other then money, in my experience.

If the church wants to appeal to men, they're going to have to start appealing to what's appealing to men. And soon.

Great podcast. Keep up the good work.

[snafu]

Provocative episode. As a man, I have a few thoughts to add...

I can only speak for the men in the USA, but it appears to me that men are 'dropping out' of many more things than just the Church. Consider: higher education, employment, parenting (I'm not talking about siring a child- I'm talking about being a real dad), etc.

It's very frustrating to me, as it has fostered a lot of cultural male-bashing, which I think is only making things worse. In short, boys are learning that not much will be expected of them as men, and they therefore make little effort to progress in any sense of the word (spiritually, financially, morally- you name it).

I don't have any clearly defined answers, but Dcn. Tim's analysis as to what's going on in the Church seems spot-on to me.

[Seminarian John]

Good podcast - valid points, insightful thinking. A couple of thoughts...

I believe that one of the reasons young men are not excelling at being young men is because we do not have many good examples that we can point to for them. Our television shows and movies do not give us any. Some of the sports figures that many boys idolize do not live a life of virtue or truth. Scandal is in every newspaper and on every news show that we see. We need men with an attitude like Deacon Tim says, "men of their word." And these need to be fathers and brothers and uncles and teachers and coaches of the young men in our society. Deacon Tim's points are well spoken about why these men are confused and not stepping up.

I think some of the comments already posted are excellent. Sometimes a man needs to be given a little slack so he can step up. He may make mistakes, but everybody does that from time to time. Most men are looking for encouragement that they can do something. If a wife encourages her husband, there is usually not anything he can't do. If she cuts him down, then there is usually nothing he will do.

There is much more to be said, but one final thought. As I was growing up in the 60's and 70's, many women were fighting to be equal with men. It seemed they were looking to knock men down a few notches and to climb over the top of them. I often wondered why women wanted to come down off the pedestal of respect and protection that I had them on to crawl around in the dirt and filth where I worked. I wasn't sexist - I respected (still do) all people, but I would open a door for a woman, let them enter a door or a checkout line first, give them a coat if they were cold, or protect them if I could from the wind or rain. It was/is an attitude of respect. I still do all of these things and usually get thanks for doing them. One woman last week said she had not had a man do that for her for years. I know they told us to stop, but I decided that no one could dictate to me how I should respect someone else. On the flip side, I have female friends who I trust very much their intuition about people and things. I can't say I always agree or follow their lead, but that special gift of a woman's intuition can be a welcome addition as I try to reason out an issue.

I say all that to say, people, male and female, have special gifts and talents. Some may be generalities that are gender based (as discussed), some may be individual based. I think God calls us to look for and use those gifts within ourselves for the good of His kingdom, and also to recognize and appreciate them in others for the same reason.

[OKCyndi]

Seminarian John,
Your comment about not understanding why women would want to come off their pedestal was so compelling.

I can truly say, since I know you IRL, you really exemplify the kind of leadership that is so badly needed today. Peace be with you!

[Kitchen Madonna]

What do you all thing of John Eldredge's book "Wild at Heart?"

[Seminarian John]

I almost referenced it in my post. It is a good book for men and women to read. There is a lot of insight into the thinking of men and it does have a scriptural bent to it. A good friend of mine helps at the "Wild at Heart" retreats that Eldrege puts on.

[Deacon Tim]

I've read pros and cons about Wild at Heart. I have the book and the companion workbook, but it was sort of on a different frequency for me, so I had trouble staying with it. I wasn't too sure it was that helpful in assisting men to properly discern God's will for their lives. I could be off track, but it seemed like it was aimed at getting relatively wealthy, well-educated white guys to do something adventurous, like white-water rafting and that sort of thing. Maybe Seminarian John or others who are more familiar with Wild at Heart can help us on this.

[Felicia Hare / Pryor]

I would also suggest that men and women alike read "How to Change Your Husband".The insight it has given me into the breakdown of the family due to the wife's rebellion is so convicting. It is a hard pill to swallow at times,but it shows how satan is alive and well tearing down families leading to the problems of society.

[Seminarian John]

Deacon Tim,

In some ways "Wild at Heart" does have that feel to it - guys doing something adventerous (which can be taken in many different ways). In other ways, it has the feel that men must become adventerous about their zeal for their faith/life/family. Of course, this is seen through the lens of a guy who thinks everything in life is based on our relationship with God and our faith - me. It is not a perfect book, by any means. None of the books that have us focus on ourselves are ever perfect, as we are only perfected in our relationship with God and others (what little perfection we can achieve in this life). So like any self-help book, even if it is faith based, we must read it in the context that God comes first and that relationship with God and others is necessary for all men and women to live in holiness and grace.

One of the things that intrigued me about the book was the insight that men need to be men. This goes along very much with the podcast for this week. We men need to continue to step up to the plate and do what God has intended us to do - live a life of virtue and holiness, care for others, share our gifts, talents, and blessings with those in need. All too often men (and women) seem to go the way of the world and care and think about only themselves. As I continue to study and learn about God, life, theology, philosophy, holiness, morality, etc., I find that I must submit myself to God, live in truth, virtue and the pursuit of holiness, and live in relationship and community with all of humankind. This is not an option but a command - love God first, then love your neighbor as yourself. It takes all three - the grace of God, ourselves submitting and loving, and the other that lets us see the face of Christ in our service to them. This is what saddens me over so many things we see in the business world and government. People seem to only look out for themselves and their little circle of like-minded friends. Anything or anyone outside of that is ignored or exploited. This is why Godly men must step up to the plate and speak up for those who do not have a voice (the unborn babies, the poor, the marginalized or oppressed, have an ear for those in our family). If we are not their voice on earth, then how can God hear our voice in heaven (read Matthew 25: 31-46 - the story of the sheep and the goats).

Lots more I could say, but this is supposed to be in response to the "Wild at Heart" book comments made.

[Joan]

Way to go Tim and Cindy! Let's put order back in the family and allow men to take back the role of sacrificial headship.

[Carol in Cal.]

I found this podcast disappointing in that it seemed in several spots to blame women for men not stepping up to what is presented as their God-given responsibilities. It seems pretty illogical to me. If these are truly God-given responsibilities, then if they are not stepping up, they are wrong. Period. It is unreasonable to expect women to step back so that men can step up. If men need to step up, they should just do it.

I think that historically men stepped out of their responsibilities and that that is what gave rise to the feminist movement. This is pretty well documented in "The Hearts of Men" by Barbara Ehrenreich.

Men stepped out first...not in response to feminism. They need to take responsibility now, regardless of feminism, if they believe that that is what God wants them to do.

[Cyndi]

Carol,
I agree to some degree that men have abdicated their responsibility, so women feel the need to step up to fill in the gaps. That is probably how the shift got started. But now women expect to be in charge, and do so in a way that often leaves men feeling useless and unnecessary.

The point of the podcast was primarily to get men and women to celebrate and use the God-given abilities which are often gender-specific and to realize that each gender needs the other to really accomplish God's work for the world.

Thanks for taking time to listen and comment - all views are welcome! And, hey - you're our first negative comment - I feel like we've arrived!

[Felicia Hare]

Before reading the book I have been plugging, I was also of the same opinion as many women. I was unaware that when we obey our husbands, as God instructed, He will reward us and lead them back to Him. It is sometimes a long and painful process to both man and wife. It all started with the rebellion of Eve, listening to the cunning serpent instead of her husband Adam. It is satan's ploy to tear families apart, and he is doing it without our knowledge. When we do have the knowledge, it is our responsibility to put what we know to change his ploy, into action. I cannot tell you the many insights I have received from the book, "How to Change Your Husband" by a friend of Medjugorje. God bless!

[snafu]

To Carol in Cal:

While I agree with your observation that men have increasingly been 'stepping out' of their traditional responsibilities, I can't agree with your suggestion that they just 'step back in' to solve the problem.

Perhaps you know- but if so your comment didn't elaborate: why have men begun to abandon their roles of responsibility in both the family and in society? I'm not insightful enough to answer that question, but I believe that this is a fair and answerable question.

I didn't 'step out' of my responsibilities- but many men I deal with have- why is that?

If your premise is that men are lazy losers and that women are the 'victims' of this- I can't buy that. SOMETHING has caused men to step back from their traditional roles. Your suggestion that we men just hitch up our manly pants and get back to work seems both simplistic and unrealistic to me.

Were men just genetically preprogrammed to suddenly in the mid-twentieth century to shirk their responsibilities for no reason? I think that seems a little silly.

I agree that our society is broken, but I think the failure of men is a symptom- not the cause.

How can we fix it? Thats the real issue. I would welcome and invite your thoughts.

[Bob Cleveland]

Where do men (and women) see their traditional roles played out? And where do men hear about their traditional roles?

First, they used to see that in their own homes and on TV. I grew up in a textbook nuclear family with a working dad, homemaker mom, and one brother. Well, and me, of course. So the normalcy of my family was traditional roles.

So look at everything that's changed since then ... women's lib, the social acceptance of immorality and consequent acceptance of unmarried parenthood, welfare society encouraging lack of work ethic, and on an on ... and then fix those things and maybe it'll come back. But I doubt it.

Second, where do we hear about traditional values? Church. I can't think of anywhere else. And look at the numbers .. the number of folks claiming to be believers is pretty small, and lots of those are really (IMO) just expressing a preference for Christianity as a religion, and not surrendering themselves to the One for Whom it is named.

So I think things will probably not get better, at least not in my lifetime.

[Carol in Cal.]

First of all, I regret that my first comment here has been negative. I have really enjoyed this podcast, quite a lot, and this is the only one that I have heard that I have taken issue with.

Snafu, I don't have a certain answer to your fundamental question--"Why did men start to abdicate their responsibilities?" What I was responding to was an implication in the podcast that women have caused this, and I feel that that is both ahistorical and, frankly, very weak.

My point is that if God requires certain responsibilities of men, the FIRST step is to remind men of this. Period. It is not to tell women to step back. It is not to tell men that it's not their fault that they are not doing what God wants. It is to tell men clearly what their responsibilites are.

The book I referenced has lots of detailed theory about why things changed during the fifties--the backlash against the societal pressure toward domesticity after WWII, the rise of a bachelor lifestyle as an attractive rather than a lonely choice, the rise of popular men's magazines like Playboy, etc. There are lots of factors. And I neither address them nor claim to know what they all are.

But, again, I think that if these are truly men's God-given responsibilities, the starting point should be to teach that, clearly and specifically, to men.

[Carol in Cal.]

I have been thinking about this further, and I would like to add something personal.

I have seen men who are capable and responsible, and have seen men who are not.

I am really sensitive, though, to the 'blame women' thing that often happens when a woman is forced by circumstances or by her own observations to become strong and responsible, and then is blamed if someone else does not.

I remember family stories about a relative of mine who couldn't find work during the Depression. He started drinking, and when he finally got a job, he didn't provide much for his wife and children. His wife quietly stepped in, during the 1930's and 40's, and arranged to borrow money to buy groceries and also got licensed and started working as a realtor. This was very hard for her--women were not well-accepted in professions in those days, and she had 3 elementary school-aged children. If anyone had ever suggested that she was preventing her husband from being strong, it would really have added insult to injury.

One of her sons grew up determined to be a stronger and better man than his father, and always supported and maintained his wife and children. He decided to do this and he did, by the grace of God.

Guys can decide to do this regardless of societal pressures; regardless of what women do or don't do--simply because they think it is right. That is my starting point--put the focus where it should be.

[Snafu]

I've given the issue some more thought, too, Carol.

I'm not suggesting that women are the 'cause' of the problem- but many women are tolerating the problem in a co-dependent fashion.

Could it be that adjectives like 'steady', 'responsible' and 'faithful' have fallen off the list that women use in judging whether or not to get involved with a man? (I would love to say 'marry a man' but that phenomena is dwindling, too)

In other words, as long as women are unwilling to accept loneliness as an acceptable alternative to hooking up with shiftless men, this cycle will continue, won't it?

I've heard women sigh and say 'That's just how men are' in the face of unfaithfulness and irresponsibility. This is an unacceptable response.