Is "Truth" Created or Discovered?

This podcast sprung from an article in the Tulsa World which quoted Josh McDowell , well-known Christian author and apologist.  McDowell reports that 82% of born again young people say something can be "true for you, but not for me." 

So what is "truth"?  Can we individually decide what is true?  We all agree that the Bible is the ultimate authority for Christians, but what about when sincere Christians differ in the practice of their faith?  Ugh, things can get really sticky!  Deacon Tim exhorts us to find the answers to these questions, and he also gives us the scoop on an ancient set of clues. 

Sooooo.........weigh in!  Can YOU decide what's true?  If you know anyone who likes to think about difficult questions, send this podcast to them and have a lively discussion this week! 

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Comments

[Bob Cleveland]

I don't have time to listen right now, but I'll comment anyway. I think the answer is both.

There are truths I can control. I live in Pelham, Alabama, but I can change that. I'm about to go to the office, but obviously I can control that, too.

On the other hand, God lays down some Spiritual truths and we cannot change them. And all we can do is to come to know them, and either accept or reject them.

What God says is true, whether we like it or not. And the tricky part .. the part that much of the world (and even the church) doesn't seem to understand is that God's truth is also authoritative. It has dominion over us whether we accept it or not.

I'm reminded of the old saying that Columbus "discovered" America at a time when 4 million people already lived here.

Now. I'll listen to the podcast later and then try to figure out how to gracefully take back what I just said. :)

[Ree]

Okay, just as much as I need Deacon Tim's eloquence and spiritual intellect, now I realize how much I also need Cyndi's Everyman Analogies! Keep 'em coming.

"Wal Mart and the Early Church..."

Sounds like a bestseller to me!

[Jennifer]

Deacon Tim, do you have some writings from "Church Fathers" you particularly like or recommend for reading?

[Simply Jenn]

I do not believe that truth is subjective. The truth is either the truth or it is not. The way we may view the same truth may be different, but that's just interpretation- the truth itself does not change.

I'm a scientist (not to be confused with scientologist because I'm definitely not that). As such we are taught often and emphatically that there are no facts. We can't say gravity is a fact because there just may be another explanation for that particular phenomena. My scientific mind has struggled with the truths taught by the church. Can there be another explanation that will one day be revealed? Maybe. But if you look at the major religions (not just Christian) the core of all of them is essentially the same. The different religions differ not because the truth is different, but because different religions are taught the same truth in different ways. I believe we are all embracing the same basic truth. And Truth when it comes to God is so much more than just facts or opinions. It is what it is.

I agree with the fact that a lot of younger parishoners will leave the church because their questions are not being answered. My parents are very religious. My father is very active in our diocese and I'm sure Deacon Tim would recognize him, if only by name. But I believed until I was six years old that when we died we were worm food. No one had ever explaned heaven or good deeds to me. If we aren't open to teaching our children or other youth about our beliefs we run the risk of losing them to a different religion or no religion at all. It's the same as when we tell our kids "because I told you so." That doesn't answer anything or further knowledge- it is the easy way out of explaining what we mean. We should all strive to both learn and teach.

[Simply Jenn]

I would also like to respectfully say to Bob that I think his living in Pelham, Alabama is a fact and not a truth. To me those two words have radically different meanings.

[Snafu]

Makes sense- 'fact' vs 'truth', Simply Jenn. I look forward to Bob's return with more thoughts...

[Bob Cleveland]

***RETURN ALERT***

Main Entry: TRUTH
Pronunciation: 'trüth
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural truths /'trü[th]z, 'trüths/
Etymology: Middle English trewthe, from Old English trEowth fidelity; akin to Old English trEowe faithful -- more at TRUE
1 a archaic : FIDELITY, CONSTANCY b : sincerity in action, character, and utterance
2 a (1) : the state of being the case : FACT (2) : the body of real things, events, and facts : ACTUALITY (3) often capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality b : a judgment, proposition, or idea that is true or accepted as true c : the body of true statements and propositions
3 a : the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality b chiefly British : TRUE 2 c : fidelity to an original or to a standard
4 capitalized, Christian Science : GOD

The defense rests.

[Simply Jenn]

Hi Bob! Interesting. To me the connotations of those two words are completely different. To me and to my way of thinking they are not interchangable.

In my dictionary (ha, see what I mean there isn't even "truth" between dictionaries)one of the definitions for truth is "a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths".

But fact means: a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true

Truth is an "indisputable fact" where as a fact is just a truth by observation. If the observer is wrong, then is that truth wrong? The key to me is indisputable in the definition of truth versus experience or observation in the definition of fact.

Does that make sense? I hope you realize that I'm not in any way attacking you or your viewpoint, so you don't need to rest your defense. I appreciate your candor and really enjoy these discussions.

[Bob Cleveland]

Jenn:

There's too much quibbling about words in the church, IMO. I get hit all the time with folks wanting to argue against "religion" and I tell them to say what they mean and please don't assign individual meanings to words. One of the guys prone to do that in our church is a lawyer, and I tell him he don't get to make up meanings in court, either.

:)

When we're talking about Spiritual truths, or absolutes, that's what I call them. There are other truths, too, of course, and I don't refuse to call secular truth, truth, simply because Spiritual truth is called truth, too.

I know someone who will not use the word "wonderful" because he said Jesus' name would be called "Wonderful, Counselor ...". I always ask him if he refuses to call, thus, our church counselor, "counselor".

Anyway, I prefer to heed 2 Timothy 2:14.

I appreciate your comments. My favorite thing is to defend the faith.

God bless.

(I guess that was redirect)

[Deacon Tim]

Jennifer: Here are some suggested books on the early church fathers:
The Teachings of the Church Fathers, Fr. John Willis, Ignatius Press
One, Holy, Catholic & Apostolic, Kenneth Whitehead, Ignatius Press
The Fathers of the Church, Mike Aquilina, Our Sunday Visitor Press;
Deacon Tim

[John Jansen]

"We all agree that the Bible is the ultimate authority for Christians, but what about when sincere Christians differ in the practice of their faith?"

Good podcast!

Not to quibble, but just to clarify: The Bible isn't the ultimate authority.

God Himself is. And He has taught us through two sources -- Scripture *and* Sacred Tradition. As far as interpretation is concerned, the ultimate authority here on earth rests with the Church's Magisterium (cf. Dei Verbum 10: http://tinyurl.com/3ecxu ).

[Cyndi]

Thanks, John, for clarifying - very helpful! For our Protestant friends, John refers to the "Magisterium," which is the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. As a Catholic, each person doesn't get to decide his own individual doctrine; we believe that Jesus gave the Church the authority to definitively teach us the truths of the faith.

If you are a pro-lifer (and I hope you are!), John is the co-director of a great youth organization called Generations for Life. Click on his name below his post to learn more about it. He and I did a radio interview about youth chastity issues, and I'll be posting it here soon.

[Jenni in KS]

I have heard it explained this way. Facts are things which are "true" today, but which may change tomorrow. Truth is true yesterday, today, and forever; it does not change.

As Christians, our primary source for determining what truth is should be God's Word. God did not leave us to figure it all out for ourselves. He gave us a guidebook for truth and for all that pertains to life and godliness. Church fathers and church tradition are fine--when they line up with that truth which God has given us via His Word.

As I see it, even great men are only that--men. We know that there has only been one perfect man, Jesus Christ. All others past, present, and future are fallible. Therefore, we must judge all that any man says by how it lines up with what God has already said.

Traditions can be wonderful ways to instill godly patterns in our lives. They can also hinder us and hide truth. Do you remember reading about Jesus rebuking the Pharisees and others for clinging to tightly to their man-made traditions? Those were "religious" traditions, too, but they were not necessarily what God wanted.

I'm not calling into question any specific questions of any denomination or any of the great men of church history. I'm just saying the validity of all traditions and all of men's words rests in whether or not they line up with God's Word. That alone is our test.

I am a little surprised that there are "Christian" denominations which question the truth of the resurrection. Perhaps they need to reread I Corinthians 15. I won't cut and paste the entire chapter here, but I'll point out a few key verses:
I Cor. 15:17
And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
and
I Cor. 15:19
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

I think you are absolutely right that we need to think about what we will tell people concerning Christ. If we don't think about it we won't be prepared to speak when we need to. The Old Testament speaks repeatedly of the responsibility of parents to teach their children concerning God, and the New Testament takes it further.
I Peter 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

We are to be ready *always* to give an answer to *every* man! That takes some preparation. That requires a little more thought than a couple hours one morning a week. God's Word should be something we dwell on constantly and strive to make an integral part of our daily lives. That is the only way we will be ready to give an answer to every man. It has to be in our own minds and hearts first.

II Timothy 3:14-17
But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned [them];
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

II Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Thanks for reminding me to put God's Word on in my mind and heart! Sometimes I have to start giving advice to other people to be reminded of what *I* need to be doing, LOL.

[Jenni in KS]

Alrighty, I would just like to say that I have only just now read the discussion and debate over the definition of "truth" and "fact". My comment had nothing to do with that, but with my own understanding and use of the two words. I am aware of the dictionary definition *and* that people get too hung up on terminology--and I don't want to get caught up in that.

In response to John Jansen's comment, yes, *God* is the final (but why wait till the end?) authority. He has made his will known to us in two ways, 1) His written word (see II Tim. 3:16 above) and 2) His spoken word, a.k.a. revelation. Both are spoken of in scripture. If church tradtion (and I mean anyone's church) follows either of those, then that's groovy. I'm not about to challenge anyone's church tradition because 1) I don't know anything about any traditions of any churches and 2) I figure there's already a whole Book written on it:o)

Just in case anyone thought I was commenting on comments. I thought I'd hold onto my thoughts better if I posted after the podcast and before reading the other comments this time.

[Snafu]

Of course, a problem you inevitably run into when judging the 'truth' based solely on reference to scripture is- who is interpreting the Good Book?

The Christian faith continues to fracture daily as people read the scriptures differently and commence to starting yet more denominations of Christianity. This concerns me.

I will freely admit that the mere human beings on earth guiding the Catholic Church have made (and will always make) errors from time to time, but in the fullness of time, I am confident that God will deliver us to our proper destination. I happily embrace the Magisterium and traditions of the Catholic Church without qualm.

[Jenni in KS]

So true, Snafu! I think we all have to do our best to come to God's Word with a pure heart and a desire to know Him--and check any preconceived notions at the door. I'm trying to listen more when I hear a different view of Scripture than that with which I'm familiar. Perhaps they know something I don't or can help me to have a greater understanding. I listen and weigh differing views with what Scripture says.

Is there support for one or the other? Does all Scripture fit together on this topic or are there difficult verses which require deeper consideration and study? Do I understand what I'm reading? Has language changed so that the meaning I give a word does not have the same meaning it originally carried or that was intended? Am I reading a verse in its context or isolating it from that context and giving it my own desired meaning?

Some day we will know all the answers to these questions. For now, I am happy to know others who want to know and discuss God and His Word. I happily embrace the search for The Truth and those who share in that quest regardless of where (or if) they attend church:o)

[Snafu]

Jenni in KS writes:
"Some day we will know all the answers to these questions. For now, I am happy to know others who want to know and discuss God and His Word. I happily embrace the search for The Truth and those who share in that quest regardless of where (or if) they attend church:o)"

Well said. In this crazy society that is not only hostile to Christianity, but also hostile to the very suggestion that God is even real, it seems wise to me for Christians of all denominations to spend less time reflecting on their differences and spend more time working on accomplishing goals we share.